Wednesday, August 02, 2006

The Early Church Fathers on No Salvation Outside the Church

Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): "[The Church] is the entrance to
life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are
bound to avoid them... We hear it declared of the unbelieving and
the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of
life which is to come... Resist them in defense of the only true and
life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles
and imparted to her sons." (Against Heresies, Book III)

Origen (died A.D. 254): "Let no man deceive himself. Outside this
house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved." (In Iesu Nave
homiliae)

Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "He who has turned his back on the
Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an
alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if
you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He
says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth
not with Me scattereth.' Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of
Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the
Church scatters the Church of Christ." (Unity of the Catholic Church)

"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does
not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and
salvation." (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Latina, Father Migne)

"Nay, though they should suffer death for the confession of the
Name, the guilt of such men is not removed even by their blood...No
martyr can he be who is not in the Church." (Ancient Christian
Writers)

Bishop Firmilean (died A.D. 269): "What is the greatness of his
error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission
of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not
abide on the foundation of the one Church." (Anti-Nicene Fathers)

Lactantius (died A.D. 310): "It is the Catholic Church alone which
retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the
abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone
shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a
stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation." (The Divine
Institutes)

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died A.D. 386): "Abhor all heretics...heed
not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are
serpents, a `brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas said `Hail
Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by
the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and
shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no
pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us
confidently say to God regarding all heretics, `Did I not hate, O
Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your
enemies?' For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written,
`I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and
her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and
death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away." (The Fathers of
the Church)

Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): "Where Peter is therefore, there is
the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life
eternal. ...Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the
name and do not have the reward." (The Fathers of the Church)

Bishop Niceta of Remesiana (died A.D. 415): "He is the Way along
which we journey to our salvation; the Truth, because He rejects
what is false; the Life, because He destroys death. ...All who from
the beginning of the world were, or are, or will be justified -
whether Patriarchs, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or Prophets,
whether Apostles or martyrs, or any others - make up one Church,
because they are made holy by one faith and way of life, stamped
with one Spirit, made into one Body whose Head, as we are told, is
Christ. I go further. The angels and virtues and powers in heaven
are co-members in this one Church, for, as the Apostle teaches us,
in Christ `all things whether on the earth or in the heavens have
been reconciled.' You must believe, therefore, that in this one
Church you are gathered into the Communion of Saints. You must know
that this is the one Catholic Church established throughout the
world, and with it you must remain in unshaken communion. There are,
indeed, other so called `churches' with which you can have no
communion. ...These `churches' cease to be holy, because they were
deceived by the doctrines of the devil to believe and behave
differently from what Christ commanded and from the tradition of the
Apostles." (The Fathers of the Church)

Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so
I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the
Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is
built. ...This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it
shall perish when the flood prevails. ...And as for heretics, I have
never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every
possible way that the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual
of Patrology and History of Theology)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except
in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have
everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the
sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have
faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in
the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): "Most firmly hold and never doubt
that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all
schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church,
will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his
angels." (Enchiridion Patristicum)

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): "Just as all within the ark
were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood
came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered
the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who
are found outside." (Hexaemeron)

Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into
salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge
there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa
Theologiae)

Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): "Outside of this communion -
as outside of the ark of Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for
mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the
Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it;
neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious
cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the
Church like pernicious members...for the rule of Cyprian and
Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would
not have the Church for his mother." (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): "Outside the Church there
is no salvation...therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join
together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the
Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of
sins'...For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah,
because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in
the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church." (De
Sacramento Baptismi)

This list is not exhaustive, but our point is made. It is clear
that, throughout her 2000-year history, the Church has constantly
and consistently taught that, if a man does not accept the faith of
Christ and enter into His Church and subject himself to the
authority of the Roman Pontiff, he cannot be saved. The language
used to express this doctrine has always been simple, direct and
unequivocal - no "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. This is the true "context
of the entire teaching of the Church on this matter" down through
the centuries.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

" if a man does not accept the faith of
Christ and enter into His Church and subject himself to the
authority of the Roman Pontiff, he cannot be saved."

Your quotes show that the believe is that the Church is the best way to salvation, but the Church does NOT teach that people outside the Church cannot be saved.

see way, way back in Church history (e.g. Romans 1:16)

Also, this article will help see that the Church has taught that salvatoin outside the Ch. is possible and has done so for a long time. Even Thomas Aquinas (my hero) has stated so!

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/on-salvation-outside-catholic-church.html

clip (but please read the whole article)
"But they also had the biblical narrative of the "pagan" Cornelius who, the Acts tell us, was "an upright and God-fearing man" even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were "God-fearing" people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some "invincible obstacle stands in the way" of his baptism and entrance into the Church.

Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.

It would be inaccurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the Church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church's magisterium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox."

Anonymous said...

Have you forgotten "St. Justin the Martyr who c. 145 A. D. in apology 1. 46,
said that in the past some who were thought to be atheists, such as
Socrates and Heraclitus, who were really Christians, for they followed the
Divine Logos, the Divine Word. Further, in Apology 2. 10 Justin adds that
the Logos is in everyone. Now of course the Logos, being Spirit, does not
take up space. We say a spirit if present wherever it produces an effect
What effect? We find that in St. Paul, in Romans 2:14-16 where he says that
"the Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the works of the law.
They show the work of the law written on their hearts." and according to
their response, conscience will defend or accuse them at the judgment. "

OR

"It is from this perspective that the question of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" - "outside the Church, there is no salvation" must be considered. It is my contention that, in order to quash both the Modernist and Protestant errors, certain ultra-Traditionalist Catholics, or ‘Feeneyites’, have accepted another heresy, namely, the rigorist view of the subjective necessity of the Church for salvation. In the hopes of putting down religious indifferentism and the attacks on the Church’s divine foundation, the followers of Father Feeney are adopting the polarized extreme on this question. Unconsciously, they are falling into the same trap that the Monophysites fell into with the question on Christ’s natures."

Or
Origen (Against Celsus 4:7)
If the Church and Christ are necessary, why did He come so late, and neglect countless millions born before His time? The first attested instance of this claim comes from the pagan Celsus, in his True Discourse, probably to be dated 178 A.D. Origen quotes Celsus: "Did God then after so great an age think of making the life of man just, but before He did not care?"

OR
Pope St. Clement had written to Corinth c. 94. A.D.



Let us go through all generations, and learn that in generation and generation the Master has given a place of repentance to those willing to turn to Him. Noah preached repentance, and those who heard him were saved. Jonah preached repentance to the Ninivites; those who repented for their sins appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens [allotrioi] of God

OR
St. Cyril of Alexandria has a very significant passage:



For if there is one over all, and there is no other besides Him, He would be master of all, because He was Maker of all. For He is also the God of the gentiles, and has fully satisfied by laws implanted in their hearts, which the Maker has engraved in the hearts of all. For when the gentiles, [Paul] says, not having the law, do by nature the things of the law, they show the work of the law written on their hearts. But since He is not only the Maker and God of the Jews, but also of the gentiles . . . He sees fit by His providence to care not only for those who are of the blood of Israel, but also for all those upon the earth

Also the most compelling argument is:
the statements of the Fathers show a basic conviction that God must have made provision for men before Christ: the same thinking applies to those afer Christ. Further, St. Paul in Romans 5:15-19 insists strongly and over and over again that the redemption is more abundant than the fall. But if the coming of Christ caused countless millions to lose in practice all chance of salvation, then the redemption would not be superabundant — it would be a tragedy, a harsh tragedy for these persons. And God would not act as if He were their God — as St. Paul asserts in Romans 3:29-30

Hilary said...

Peter Kreeft (one of the best Catholic writers today) has a good summary of this issue in his "what catholics believe".

www.kofc.org/rc/en/publications/cis/publications/hart/Hart_CIS107.pdf

Les said...

but St. Augustine also says

"But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers...ers/ 1102043.htm

Allen Dobb said...

You quote Augustine and Aquinas as favoring your position, but in reality they have also spoken against it. You can't just give one side of their argument - you have to give the whole view because these two Saints did not adhere to the claim that there is no salvation outside the church. Nor did Pope Piux IX. all are, as you know, Pre-Vat II.

St. Augustine
"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body."
"All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark."

St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologica
Part II. Question 66. Article 11
". . . a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentence."
"The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed."

And don't forget about
Pope Pius IX
Solemn Allocution Singulari Quadam
December 9, 1854

It is to be held of faith that none can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church . . . but nevertheless it is equally certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if that ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty in the matter in the eyes of the Lord.

Encyclical
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR
August 10, 1863

We all know that those who are invincibly ignorant of our religion and who nevertheless lead an honest and upright life, can, under the influence of divine light and divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who knows and sees the mind, the heart, the thoughts, and the dispositions of every man, cannot in His infinite bounty and clemency permit any one to suffer eternal punishment who is not guilty through his own fault."

M. Alexander said...

They are not to be counted as heretics but neither does it say that they are saved. I think we hope they come to the truth.

Hilary said...

I won't repeat the quotes here, but Gerald has recently provided plenty of quotes from the early fathers that argue against your claim that the outside the church there is no salvation.

If you're going to present a Catholic perspective for anyone on the web to read, it is important to present the one that is consistent with current Church thinking on this issue. In that respect, Gerald's post gives a more accurate picture (which might explain the numerous Catholic blog awards that he received this year).

http://closedcafeteria.blogspot.com/

Biremdra said...

These points also apply to the quotes that you have provide to erroneously support your claim. In fact, your statement contradicts the Church's OFFICIAL teachings.

Feeneyites also use the Early Church Fathers to defend their own position. These quotes fall under three categories:
1. They quote the same Fathers that are quoted in this document, meaning that the Feeneyite citations are probably out of context or misunderstood. A Church Father wouldn’t contradict himself.
2. The quotes say no one is saved outside the church while speaking about heretics. A heretic would be one who knows the necessity of baptism and the Catholic Church, yet still refuses to enter the Church. The Church has always taught that heretics cannot attain salvation (CCC 846). Thus these quotes do not contradict the Faith written out in the Catechism.
3. The Father quoted says there is no salvation accomplished outside the Church. This is very different than saying only physical members of the Church will be saved. The Catechism of the Catholic Church agrees that all whom are saved are saved through the Catholic Church, no matter if they were baptized in it or not, and thus their salvation was not accomplished outside of it (CCC 846).



"Letter from the Holy Office (DS 3870):
From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.
Your Excellency:
This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of "St. Benedict Center" and "Boston College" in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: "Outside the Church there is no salvation."
After having examined all the documents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of "St. Benedict Center" explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other documents pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, "outside the Church there is no salvation," was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities."
Your Excellency's most devoted,
F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.
A. Ottaviani, Assessor.
(Private); Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949.
(Pope Pius XII personally approved this letter.)


http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html

Tracy said...

This sums up the true teachings of the Catholic church on this matter.

Jesus died for all (CCC 1260), so that our sins may be forgiven and we could enter heaven, because nothing impure can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). The Church believes He instituted the Sacraments to be given through the Church for the salvation of man (their effects, however, can be received through desire without the physical sacrament). God wishes that all should come to knowledge of the truth and be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-4), and the Church is God’s plan for salvation (CCC 780). Those who, by no fault of their own, do not know that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ are not guilty for not having entered the Church (CCC 847). Those people can attain salvation by living according to the natural law, written on the hearts of all men (Rom. 2:14). God knows, because of His omniscience, what ignorant person would cooperate with His will if he was to be evangelized by the Catholic Church. He knows which people would desire baptism if they knew it were necessary. Even if a person is saved, but wasn’t a physical member of the Church (a Protestant, etc.), their salvation is still accomplished through the Church (CCC 846) and Jesus Christ’s redemptive death on the cross (Acts 4:12). The Church teaches that all men are, although some imperfectly, somehow tied to the Catholic Church whether they know it or not (CCC 818-819, 836-845).

Final Note:
It is extremely important to reiterate that although a person invincibly ignorant of baptism and the Catholic Church may attain salvation, the Church also has always taught that it is much easier to follow the path of God with the knowledge of His Divine Revelation and the Good News of Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is imperative that Catholics continue to evangelize those all over the world who have not yet heard the Gospel (Mk. 16:15).

surgiteetcoffeamolfacite said...

It is heresey to say that there is salvation outside the Church. The question is are there different ways of being baptised in order to be inside the Church without getting baptized by water? One is the bazzaar idea that someone who wants to be a good person, so I guess he would have wanted to be baptized if God was powerful enough to make it available to him, is saved that way. I think it is a Gnostic view to assume some people never hear the Gospel. I think somehow in some way everyone has an opportunity to be baptized by water. there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church there should be no arguement there. What is outside, obviously the unbaptized.

Lee said...

"Those people can attain salvation by living according to the natural law,..."
Salvation is only attained by the possession of Sanctifying Grace.
Living according to the Natural Law is the modus operandi of one is cooperating with God's grace. It cannot be a substitute for it.

"God knows,... what ignorant person would cooperate with His will if..."
This is a little fuzzy. What is meant by "would" cooperate? To cooperate with God's grace is to be in a state of cooperation - a state of Grace.
You either are or you are not.

"He knows which people would desire baptism if they knew it were necessary."
Baptism by desire, except in the case of certain infant children, is the specific desire for Baptism.
This Baptism is effected to that individual who DOES desire Baptism by water - not one who "would" desire it.
Indeed, one who is in invincible ignorance may not be guilty of rejection of the Faith offered by the Church militant here on earth;
but this person still does not possess sanctifying grace just because of that 'lesser' innocence.
Ignorance is not a virtue.
And Sanctifying Grace is always an absolute necessity to attain to the Beatific Vision of God in Three Divine Persons.

any mouse 300 said...

"It is heresey to say that there is salvation outside the Church."

Wrong. It is the official teaching of the church. Check the CCC.

Rob said...

"It is heresy to say that there is salvation outside the Church."

any mouse 300 "Wrong. It is the official teaching of the church. Check the CCC."

Wrong again. Read the CCC. It agrees with Trent. (It has to agree with Trent, an infallible ecumenical council)

Thomas Shawn said...

it is important to present the one that is consistent with current Church thinking on this issue.

Is hilary suggesting the current thinking differs from the teachings of the Church Fathers ?

Wow. Now that would be quite a heresy.

Lee said...

Also let us remember that Baptism by both blood and desire are NOT the Sacrament of Baptism; and that they therefore do not enable one to share in the Priesthood of Christ which is given to those who have been baptized as "adopted sons".

hilary said...

"Is hilary suggesting the current thinking differs from the teachings of the Church Fathers ?

Wow. Now that would be quite a heresy."

No, I did not sugges that. I meant that the if you check what the Church currently teachings about this issue, it does NOT agree with what Rob wrote. That is, the Church has not suddenly changed its mind about this issue. This is also consistent with what the Early Fathers thought


for quotes see http://www.catholic.com/library/

Then chose Salvation from the library menu on the left side
it clearly states "The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God. " If you read through the quotes, you can see that they did not preclude the availability of salvation to Jews.


or visit the Cafeteria is Closed blog. He has a ton of quotes from the Early Fathers that contradict the claim "no salvation outside the church"

or read your catechism! especially para 847.

Given this, it is heresy to claim that the Catholic Church supports the opinion that there is no salvation outside the church because they DO NOT make this claim.

Lee said...

My God. That there is no salvation outside the Church is a mainstay of Catholic belief, and always has been. This belief has been developed,to be sure, but it is still there.
Quotes can always be taken out of context.
The big woop-di-doo CCC is inadmisible as offering anything on this or any other Catholic matter. If one can not go back further than this joke of a catechism, and must rely on it alone; or if something is found in it which cannot be stated exactly by some other catechetical or dogmatic source, it is worthless.
I challenge anyone to find where there is DEFINED by the Church, as official DOGMATIC teaching - precisely and specifically - that there IS salvation outside of Church.
You won't.

Melinda said...

"The big woop-di-doo CCC is inadmisible as offering anything on this or any other Catholic matter. If one can not go back further than this joke of a catechism, "

Now THAT comment is heresy.
The CCC contains all of the teachings of the churches. It is not a joke. It has been prepared and endorsed by the Vatican (and they have it on their webpage as the official source for Catholics and non-Catholics to use to learn about what the church actually teaches).
Every been to http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
?

From the introduction"
" The Doctrinal Value of the Text


The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church's Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8).

JPII
"

Also it seems to me that you have never actually looked at the CCC because if you did you would see that almost every statement has a footnote with a reference to various documents and writings of early fathers to document where the statement came from.

If you rejected the material in the CCC, then you are rejecting the Magisterium and are not a Catholic. You are a heretic or possibly a schismatic.

Anonymous said...

Mary, what about Church teachings on baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance?

Lee said...

O.K., Melinda; Geez, settle down. Gosh.
The CCC is fine, O.K.? Love it, I can't get enough of it.
I have 7 copies myself - one for each room of the house, including the bathroom (always need something to read in there, what?)
Don't think I'm schismatic - in communion with a bishop who's in communion with the Pope. Pray for them both - pray WITH them (the "una cum" and all that).
Don't think I'm a heretic - well, at least not knowingly and willfully so (what's called 'formal heresy', for those that don't know).

Nice rebuttle, by the way. Not calculatedly fussy or anything.

You know, after so charitable a rebuke, I somehow wish that I were NOT a Catholic: because I suspect that it is only then that I could feel certain of your saying a little prayer for me.

Tootle-loo.

Melinda said...

Lee,
If you have 7 copies as you claim, then you will see that your earlier statement about the early fathers NOT holding this position is false. As I said in my earlier post, the CCC's section on this issue refers to earlier writings. You can use the CCC, work back through the sources it cites and see that your statement :
"I challenge anyone to find where there is DEFINED by the Church, as official DOGMATIC teaching - precisely and specifically - that there IS salvation outside of Church.You won't."
is incorrect and inconsistent with the Catholic Church.

Yet instead of reading the CCC for yourself, you dismissed it by saying that the Catechism was joke and said "big woop-di-doo CCC is inadmisible as offering anything on this or any other Catholic matter." In doing so, you mocked and dismissed a volume that is a gift to all those who wish to learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches. The CCC was intended to guard against the very thing you are currently doing -- picking and choosing which parts fo the faith you will believe, and coming up with your own idiosyncratic interpretation.

I assume the comment about keeping the CCC in the bathroom is joke. It contains prayers and sacred scripture. Surely, it deserves a more respectful spot in your house.

Lee said...

O.K., Melinda, let's stop this before either you start charging by the hour or I ask you to marry me.
You seem like a really nice person, and you have won me over.
I repent of all my vices, and I promise that the next time I tweek the nose of a lady who is so obviously on fire for the Faith, I won't be so condescending.

As an aside, what is so bad about reading something good in the bathroom?
I mean, it is possible to be a little puritanical in this area.
A function of the body, that's all, like any other; Our Lord and Our Lady also performed natural functions (except, of course, the conjugal act and menstruation).
And suppose a physical evil makes it necessary for one to spend a quantity of time in the bathroom. Would it not be better to read something sacred as opposed to something profane?
St. Paul tells us to "redeem the time". I suppose that may be inclusive of time spent in the john.

Lee said...

Oh, and also:

Let me put this in a kinder, gentler way.
Here's what I need.
A statement - from a Council, or from a Pope teaching officially, which reads something like this:

If anyone teaches or affirms that salvation MAY NOT be acheived outside of the fold of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic only, let him be anathama.

Or words to that effect.
That's all I'm asking.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Jack said...

"Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?"

Hey, Lee...do you own homework!
Melinda told you where you can find the reference you want. Also, check out the Cafeteria Is Closed Blogspot for the early fathers.

We can't hold your hand --- do your own work, will ya! (or just follow the links that the other commenters have left on this post and the other post on this topic).

PS Nice way to weasle out of mocking the CCC.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Melinda said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lee said...

Thanks, Jack. QED, eh?
And I have NEVER done my OWN homework, and I have no intention of starting now (paid out too much money in college).

The weasling thing was great, wasn't it? I have quite a talent for that, to be sure.
It's a good skill to possess, especially when dealing with all sorts of people on comment sections.

And to all and sundry I say:
LAUGH! ENJOY EVERYTHING!

Lee said...

Oh yes, "crap" anonymous:

Thanks for the advice that came 'from your end'(so to speak) as well.

Anonymous said...

"The weasling thing was great, wasn't it? I have quite a talent for that, to be sure.
It's a good skill to possess, especially when dealing with all sorts of people on comment sections."

True. The host of this blog is a master of it! So you've come to the right spot. Weasling is not only tolerated it's encouraged (but only if you are anti-Pope).

Lee said...

Well then, anonymous, it appears that I am come home.

But I sincerely hope that the host is not anti-Pope!
I, for my part, have enjoyed his beautiful couplets all my life.

"Behold the groves that shine with silver frost;
Their beauty withered, their verdure lost." - Alexander Pope (I'm sorry, I forget his dates)

Lovely, isn't it?

M. Alexander said...

Lee wrote:

O.K., Melinda, let's stop this before either you start charging by the hour or I ask you to marry me.
You seem like a really nice person, and you have won me over.

What a good idea. Why don't you two date or something?

Melinda said...

"Why don't you two date or something?"

Why?? Two reasons
1) I have no idea who Lee is.
2) I'm married.

Lee said...

I'm married as well; and bless my soul, VERY happily.
We have produced 7 children.

Two of which I keep in the bathroom (they're teenage girls).

By the way, what was this comment section originally concerning again?

Anonymous said...

"We have produced 7 children."
Now the reading in the bathroom makes sense -- my dad used to read in the bathroom, too, whenever he needed some time away from us kids!


"By the way, what was this comment section originally concerning again?"
Who knows, but it's been fun!

Lee said...

Yes, I agree.
Well, if there's nothing else, I think we should all move on now.

I really hope we will do this again: as we wrangle, dispute and harangue over another "burning" issue as they are presented for our consideration by our most excellent host.

I love you all. You're dolls! Never change.

John said...

Ho Hum, Perhaps statements like that were justifiable over 1500 years ago but not anymore.
We live in a day and age when all the Sacred Scriptures of the entire Great tradition of Humankind are freely available on the internet or via Amazon etc.

And as such we (all of us) have inherited ALL of that in its entirety and it is our responsibility to go to school and deprovincialize our "minds".

To claim that there is only one way to be "saved" is just shere religious provincialism/illiteracy?
And dangerous nonsense!!

Besides which please check out this reference on the POLITICS of the Christian Idol.

1. www.dabase.net/proofch6.htm#idol

Lee P. said...

Well, john,
when you are able to create something, either physical or spiritual (both of which fit into the category of what we call the Natural realm) from absolute nothingness; and further sustain that entity which you have created every single moment of its being (which you have given it) by the shere power of your will alone,using no other pre-existing material whatsoever (as a matter of fact, you must create ALL material from NOTHING, and keep it ALL sustained ceaselessly); and in the process create a wondrous variety of being - sustaining EVERY SINGLE BIT of it, again, ceaselessly:
When you can do that, then maybe your opinion will have some interest to me.
As it is, I can only say: "whatever".

Joe Paulin said...

There is the argument, that to my knowledge does not contradict the deposit of faith or the authority of the Church, which may be stated thus: It is through the establishment of the Church and Her sacramental authority and dispensation that any are to be saved. If they do not accept or understand this, and yet by the economy of grace they are judged mercifully, it will be through this same sacramental authority established by, and "flowing from", the Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has endowed Hid Church with the same authority and power. Any comments on this would be most welcome.

joepaulin2009 said...

There is the argument, that to my knowledge does not contradict the deposit of faith or the authority of the Church which may be stated thus: It is through the establishment of the Church and Her sacramental authority and dispensation that any are to be saved. If one does not accept or understand this, and yet, by the economy of grace he is judged mercifully to “enter into Life”, it will be through this same sacramental authority established by, and "flowing from", the Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has endowed His Church with the same authority and power. Any comments on this would be most welcome.

Catholic Mission said...

Tuesday, March 6, 2012
Michael Voris affirms rigorist interpretation of dogma outside the church no salvation: says there is no “anonymous Catholic”

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/03/michael-voris-affirms-rigorist.html#links

Catholic Mission said...

Tuesday, March 20, 2012
Bishop Fellay, Fr.Schmidberger,FSSP,Joseph Fenton seem unaware the baptism of desire is not an explicit exception to the dogma
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/bishop-fellay-frschmidbergerfsspjoseph.html

Catholic Mission said...

Friday, October 7, 2011
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
Dean of the Faculty of Philosophy, University Pontifical Regina Apostolorum, Rome in his office today morning said he was familiar with the text of the dogma Cantate Domino and he would endorse it in public.

Fr. Rafael Pascual said he and other Legionaries of Christ priests took an oath in Church to be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church and he showed me on his computer the text of this oath.


He took exception to a report (1) I e-mailed him which indicated that the Legionaries of Christ priests have not affirmed the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


Fr. Pascual who is the Director of the Master of Science and Faith Institute knew that the dogma on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Cantate Domino (2) was in accord with Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) (3), Dominus Iesus 20 (4) and other Magisterial text.

The Church also affirms it may be mentioned that non Catholics can be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. However the Church Fathers, popes and Councils always new that these cases were implicit and so did not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are only known to God and we would not meet any such case in person. Also no Magisterial text claims that they are explicitly known to us. -Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html#links