Wednesday, October 11, 2006

This ....

is Getting Hard to Ignore.

Now when the other persistent rumors would surface I don't remember them being picked up by the secular press. But maybe I just don't remember.

Of course the article is riddled with errors but why wouldn't it be since this is the U.K. Times? I've learned its best to expect that.

You can start with the perjorative claim that this is the Rite that "divided the Church". Excuse me? Perhaps they mean like the lambs and the goats?

I'm sorry- that is harsh but that is what is expected of Traditionalists so I try hard not to disappoint.

The real question remains, how will the Bishops be able to subvert this? And believe me they will.

1. Forbid priests to say the Latin Mass.


2. Suspend priests who say the Latin Mass for ANOTHER "transgression". Check.


3. Ascertain that the Seminaries will not teach the rubrics.


4. Reject any candidate for the Seminary who is rigid, unpastoral or masculine i.e. wants to say the Latin Mass.


5. Claim they lack the Staff to provide the Latin Mass.


6. Claim that NO PRIESTS WANT to say the Latin Mass and he cannot force them to go against their conscience. (well in this instance anyway).


7. Claim that NO PEOPLE WANT to attend the Latin Mass and it would be unfair to impose something upon them. (well in this instance anyway).


8. Offer the Novus Ordo in Latin and pretend he thought that that is what the Holy Father meant.


9. Provide a priest who a)hates the Latin Mass b) hates the people who attend the Latin Mass c) will spend all his sermon excoriating Tradition d)all of the above.


10. Claim that the government will take away their tax exempt status if they offer the Latin Mass in their dioceses. Why not it has worked on the abortion issue.



chattr said...

From the article (note its title 'Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church'!):

The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.

That's known as 'the exception swallowing the rule'.

Thomas Shawn said...

Call me cynical but we may be seeing the dawn of tambourine banging, flip flop wearing, hand-holding, Kum BAYE YA clown "Tridentine" Masses.

The question still is this: What is the proper spirit of the liturgy?

I'm just happy to live near a chapel that does it right. ;-)

Petrus said...

Well, if indeed the universal indult is declared first they'll need a committee headed by a naked nun (i.e. no habit).

Then they'll have to research the possibility of the indult and see if there is a need in their diocese.

Then, they'll have to do a financial summary - this they will advertise broadly in case they traditionalists want to donate more money.

Then, they'll see if there is a suitable "church" - hopefully on an island with no large van access to limit the number of children.

Maybe my grandchildren will get it.

Oh - I almost forgot. They'll have to have several "listening" sessions where people can talk about thier feelings and voice their concerns. Any excuse to talk about feelings.

hilary said...

Latest rumours from Correiere della Serra:

In the new provisions, the bishop could not refuse
request for the Traditional Latin Mass] but would have the
responsibility to
regulate the celebration, i.e., the time of Mass, the altar, the parish

looks like you called it Mary.

Dust I Am said...

Lots of these things will likely happen, but if the old Latin Mass is begun (even if it is badly said), it may be partially cleansed by its own merits.

In the past, somewhat hostile priests who were appointed to offer the old Latin Mass began to come to an accomodation with the ancient liturgy. One priest that I am aware of finally began to like offering the old Latin Mass because of its beautiful music.

joshua said...

Technically, the Novus Orda is the Latin Mass. The 1962 Mass is most aptly called the "Tridentine" or 1962 Mass.

That is because the Roman Catholic Church is the Latin Church. There are over 20 Catholic Sui Juris Churches all in communion with Rome. They have their own approved rites.

It is a shame that people forget the culture and history of the Novus Orda.

Thomas Shawn said...

Joshua -

You are attempting to confuse the issue. Why?

hilary said...


Technically the spelling you are looking for is "Novus Ordo", Latin for New Order. It, as with everything else in the Church, was forumlated in Latin and translated thereafter into the various languages. What is being erroneously referred to in the press as the "Latin Mass" or the "Old Latin Mass" or the "Tridentine Rite" was also in Latin, but never enjoyed (or suffered) a formally promulgated translation into any vernacular language.

We have the Latin Novus Ordo Mass available at the Toronto Oratory, as well as the Tridentine Mass, also called the "Traditional Latin Mass" or the "Old Mass" or the "Mass of all Time." Previous generations simply referred to it as "The Mass." because unless you were an adherent of one of the very small number of alternate rites retained after the COuncil of Trent, (the Mozarabic rite, for example native to Naples I think, or was it Venice?) it was the only one there was.

Also technically, all the liturgy, decrees, documents, encyclicals and everything else in the Latin Rite of the Universal Church are in Latin, and later translated into the various vernacular languages.

The issue in discussion here is the rite of the Mass codified and promulgated by Pope St. Pius V after the Council of Trent. We are not talking about the other rites of the liturgy proper to the other Rites in communion with Rome.

Technically, the Catholic Church has only been called the "Roman" Catholic Church by Protestants who wanted to use the phrase to emphasize the central authority of the Pope which they considered opposed to true universality, or "catholicity" in Greek.

Technically, what you are probably conflating here is the Latin Rite, which is the largest rite, of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of which there are a number of other Rites (Maronite etc,) in communion with the Holy Father.

Technically, ecclesiology is clearly something that we need to learn a bit more about yes?

Anonymous said...

Mozarabic rite, is Spanish, still celebrated in Toledo, Ambrosian is the great northern Italian Rite centred in Milan. The Maronite Rite is an oriental rite, not a latin rite, though it has been mucked about so much.

WondrousPilgrim said...

As some of the reports suggest, this document will not only contain the indult, but it will be a larger document that addresses the pastoral concerns of making the new mass availible, and of calling to those who have left the Church on account of this mass.

But I worry that, though the "olive brach" has been extended, you will find a way to hate it, and be cynical, and never try to restore peace in the church on thi issue. This post tells me that you have hard hearts. You have your liturgy, but I see no charity.

I pray that Christ, through his servant Benedict, will soften those hearts.

Petrus said...

Wondrous Pilrim: You obviously haven't spent much time in the world of a traditionalist who just wants to be left alone to worship as their fathers, grandfathers, and greatgrandfathers have.

Before casting aspergians on people who have been promised something, then had that taken away for no reason, harassed, harangued and all sorts of other bizarre behavios, you want to see what's going on around you.

For instance, why is this announce such a big deal? Why having or not having the traditional Mass have to make headlines. Isn't this something that should simply be made available to all Catholics who feel that worshipping in this manner brings them closer to God?

Just ask yourself why is causes more scandal in the Church if a priest decides to say the Traditional Mass exclusively, then if a bishop leaves to Church in order to marry, and then causes scandal by ordaining married men.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

hilary said...

Careful Anon, not to confuse the various Rites of the Catholic Church (Maronite = Lebanese Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, etc) with the various rites of the liturgy (Ambrosian rite, Dominican rite of the Mass). The former are divisions of national Churches that usually have very ancient roots in a particular region of Christendom. The latter are different ways, codified and approved by Rome, of celebrating the sacred liturgy.

hilary said...

But I worry that, though the "olive brach" has been extended, you will find a way to hate it, and be cynical, and never try to restore peace in the church on thi issue. This post tells me that you have hard hearts. You have your liturgy, but I see no charity.

Plenty of charity here too I see. Thanks, I love being told how hard-hearted and ingenerous I am. I feel so warmed by your kindness.

David L Alexander said...

Chattr et al:

Let's take another look at that quotation:

"The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing."

This is a significant development. In fact, it is probably the ONLY significant development in the latest version of the rumor mill. It codifies what I've been predicting since last year -- and yes, there is a certain smug satisfaction that comes from being right all along, but I'm hoping to get over it -- of the burden shifting from the petitioner, to the one being petitioned.

Pope Benedict knows what he wants, but he is not stupid. To move cautiously and deliberately, as opposed to the relative theatrics associated with his predecessor of loving memory, includes allowing for the role of the diocesan bishop. More than one of them has already been taken to task in Rome for not being generous enough in applying the Indult. This may be hard for some people to believe, but such corrective measures have been known to happen.

And from my own sources, I know this to be true (although I'm not one to brag, right?).

Anonymous said...

"Oct. 16 ( - The head of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) might write to the Pope, asking for a removal of the excommunications levied on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the bishops he ordained in 1998, according to a French newspaper report."

I knew that SSPX couldn't stay away from the True Church forever. Welcome back.